After seeing a few people say, "Nice" and "That's Funny" I felt compelled to reply, "Stalin killed 20 million. During the 500 year Inquisition period 6,000 people were executed. Both wrong. But in the race to kill gobs of people the secularists win by a landslide. And I say this as a person who isn't religious."
Oh sure, I'm a buzz kill but I had to say something.
After a few people backed me up, my friend said, "Well made points, all. the point I'm making is this: Very few people, if any, kill in the NAME of secularism. More deaths are conflicts over territory, resources, etc, - and that's part of nature. Humans are the only species that kill in the name of religion. Shakespeare's writings are far more violent than the Bible, and both have passionate followers, but no one kills over Shakespeare unless it's to get the lead in regional theatre."
To which I said, "Yes, but communism and Marxism are anti-religion. Secularism is at the very core of both ideologies."
A friend of his chimed in, "True Traci, but they were not killing people in the name of secularism: they were killing people in the name of the ideology of communism."
Apparently, this debate wasn't over and the responses were getting longer.
Yes, but the first thing these "isms" do is ban religion. Why do you think that happens? Stalin, Hilter, Moa and "Paulpotts" [Paulpotts is a callback to a joke which is not printed here] were all atheists. That doesn't mean all atheists are capable of mass murder but you can't deny who they were. Our Founding Fathers put Freedom of Religion into our Constitution because they understood the ability to worship freely is vital to a democracy. Like I said earlier, I'm not a religious person but I do believe in freedom. "Secular' despots have killed more people in the 20th Century than any religious leaders ever have in all of recorded history combined.My friend...
You're right on the above, Traci, but the above dictators were not motivated to genocide by their secularism. The fact that secularism or atheism was a part of who they were is true. Their secularism had as much to do with their killings as did their love for pants; they may have loved both, but pants and godlessness were not their motivation for mass murder, except in the case of Paulpants. Most wars are resource-related, as you stated, but religion adds in a "special bonus" reason for war. War is in every strand of human dna; religion is an imaginary reason to unlock it. I imagine that everyone in this thread believes in the right to religious freedom that you speak of, as well as the danger of theocracy.My friend's friend...
"Secular' despots have killed more people in the 20th Century than any religious leaders ever have in all of recorded history combined."Me again....
That's not true. Pretty much all ancient wars were fought in the name of religion, as royalty believed they were appointed by God and had the right to whatever they wanted. Vikings raped and pillaged to pay tribute to their Gods. The crusades were fought over the belief that Christians deserved to rule the land of their "savior's" birth.
There are also insane incidents like the Easter Island statues, where inhabitants became so consumed with building idols that they used all the natural resources on the island and just about everyone died. Religious leaders also spread lies about Small pox vaccines and AIDS prevention because modern medicine undermined the power they wielded as someone who could supposedly commune with God and heal them. AND how many people have been killed because of religious based intolerance? Slavery, manifest destiny, racism, homophobia, are all concepts which have been propped up by many/most of the religious leaders of their respective eras.
The leaders of various communist/facist parties didn't outlaw religion because of some petty dislike for it, they outlawed it because it had a message in direct contrast to their own. If you teach your followers to kill everyone with glasses, it doesn't really gel with "Love thy neighbor" (not that people tend to listen to that part anyway.) Religion wasn't all that was outlawed; anything with an opposing message was. Hitler killed all the Communists because they were a threat, not because he was really into Adam Smith's invisible hand.
Pre-20th Century weaponry can't hold a candle to 20th century weaponry. They may have had the desire to kill as many people but they didn't have the means... or the population numbers to make their dreams a reality. And slavery was ended by religious people! Abolitionists were all Christians. Next thing you know you'll tell me 5,000 people were killed during the Salem Witch Trials. (It was 19 plus a dog.) I can't believe I'm defending religion but I'm sort of staggered that I'm witnessing people defend Stalin. If "love thy neighbor" doesn't fit in with the communist manifesto then I think I'll hang out with the religious folks. For all the "evil" that's been perpetrated by religion there has also been quite a bit of good. The same can't be said for fascism, Marxism and communism.As my husband pointed out, the term "useful idiot" wasn't coined by Edward R. Murrow, it was the brainchild of Vladimir Lenin.
And you thought Facebook was all about people telling the world what they had for breakfast.